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COACHING VS. THERAPY w/ Kaycee Joy

Unlike what many teach, the difference between coaching and therapy isn’t as black and white as it may seem. Tune into this episode today as I bring back to the show fellow coach, Kaycee Joy, and we discuss what we believe the differences between coaching and therapy are.

COACHING VS. THERAPY

“I just want listeners to have two different perspectives to realize that coaching and therapy isn’t a black and white, two bucket kind of thing. It can be a very gray thing.”

Life Coaching vs Therapy

One of the questions I get asked the most in my personal life is how coaching is different or similar to therapy. It’s a great question to ask because until I hired my coach 8 years ago, I didn’t know the differences either.

Before hiring my coach, I spent a year going to weekly therapy and while I had some progress, it was slow moving and many times, I left my sessions wondering what I had gained from the hour I spent with my therapist.

It felt like a gab sesh at times and looking back, there were many times she talked me out of my truth because she was trained to be the “expert” and I believed that her title designated her to be more qualified to tell me how to live my life.

I left that therapy experience with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth (especially after experiencing coaching because it was deeply transformative for me), but then years later while working with a marriage coach with my husband, I found myself in a place where I felt I needed more of a therapist than a coach to slowly work through some disregarded trauma in my life.

That experience of wanting therapy opened my eyes to seeing therapy in a different way and led me on a journey to finding even more modalities of coaching that can be even more therapeutic in nature than what I experienced as a client (and then coach myself).

Unlike what many teach, the difference between coaching and therapy isn’t as black and white as it may seem. Tune into this episode today as I bring back to the show fellow coach, Kaycee Joy where we discuss what we believe the differences between life coaching and therapy are.

SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE WE COVER:

  • What we define the differences of coaching and therapy to be
  • What the core quality you need to have is in order to be a coaching client
  • How Kaycee and I are different in our coaching strategies
  • Why it isn’t about looking for a coach or a therapist, but it’s about looking for this other thing instead

…and so much more

Listen now to this powerful episode at the top of the page. (It’s one of my favorites to date.)

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

Apply to coach with me

Continue the conversation in my free online community

Get The 4-Day Accomplish Your Dreams Free Training 

Kaycee Joy’s Instagram

Full Transcript

Life Coaching vs Therapy

Episode 116: COACHING VS. THERAPY
This is the Become an Unstoppable Woman podcast with Lindsay Preston Episode 116,
Coaching vs. Therapy.


[music]


Welcome to the Become an Unstoppable Woman podcast, the show for goal-getting, fearfacing women for kicking ass by creating change. I’m your host, Lindsay Preston. I’m a wife,
mom of two, and a multi-certified life coach to women all over the world. I’ve lived
through enough in life to know that easier doesn’t always equate to better. We can’t fear
the fire, we must learn to become it. On this show, I’ll teach you how to do just that. Join
me as I challenge you to become even more of the strong, resilient, and powerful woman
you were meant to be. Let’s do this.


[music]

Hi there, my friends. Welcome to another episode of the show. Oh my goodness, this
episode right here today, I have been looking forward to for a long time. No joke, I could
not even sleep, I was so excited to record this episode. I’ve been wanting to get this
information out into the world. I wanted to bring on Kaycee Joy, who you may remember
from episodes 110 and 111, where she talks about her coaching story with me and she also
talks about her coaching practice in the bodywork episode, back on the show, because I
wanted this to be a discussion of us talking about the differences between coaching and
therapy.


I can sit and tell you all day long, where I stand with the two, but I wanted to bring on
Kaycee because Kaycee has had a different experience than I have had with therapy, and
with coaching, because we’ve worked with different people obviously, and yet, it’s funny
because we still have come up with the same conclusion. I didn’t even realize this until we
sat and recorded it. I just really wanted you to see that there’s different perspectives out
there.

I think a lot of times people like to put coaching in one bucket and therapy in the other
and say, “Well, if you have X, Y, Z qualities, you go to therapy and if you have A, B, C
qualities, you go to coaching,” and it’s really a very gray thing. There are people who may
be a better suited for therapy if they go and work with this one coach because that coach
may approach their style of coaching in a different way than maybe I do or the way that
Kaycee does.


Even Kaycee and I talk about the difference. We both consider ourselves coaches, but yet,
our styles are different, the way we hold space is different, what we’re asking from clients
is different. Again, I just want you to see this isn’t a easy-peasy, I’m either here in therapy,
or here in coaching, it’s really about you finding the right person for you. I love this
discussion with Kaycee, I think you’re going to gain a lot out of it.


I think too of you have been somebody who has been to therapy, it may have some aha
moments for you and you may even disagree with some of the things we say and again,
that just goes back to everyone’s perspective is going to be different. It’s not that coaching
is better than therapy or therapy is better than coaching, again, it’s just where you’re at in
your life and where that comes together, but again, as I’m saying, I think it’ll give you some
aha moments if you’ve only had therapy.

I know for a lot of my clients, and they’ll come to coaching and say, “Oh, yes, this is what I
was missing in therapy.” Maybe on the flip of that, some people may experience coaching,
and then say, “Oh, man, yes, it was therapy that was the missing piece.” Again, I think
you’re going to gain a lot from it. Enjoy this conversation with me and the beautiful Kaycee
Joy.


Hey there, my friend. There’s an intro upon an intro here because after Kaycee and I
recorded this episode, we had a couple of weeks to really sit on what we said, and
especially what we didn’t say in this episode. There are two things that we felt like we
didn’t touch on in this episode that I’m going to put it here before we even get into the
conversation, versus putting it at the end because they’re important parts and I don’t want
you to miss them.

The first thing that I felt like we missed in this episode, was when we were talking about
the difference between coaching and therapy, we failed to mention that generally
speaking, most coaches just look at the present and the future when they are coaching
with somebody. I even know certain coaching modalities that want nothing to look at your
past, and they think it’s almost like not even worth their time to do that. I want you to just
be aware that most coaches do this.


Now, Kaycee and I do not do this, we both look at the past, we both spend time there and
so that’s where you’ll hear a lot in this episode, how coaching and therapy is in two
different buckets, but it’s actually very gray and it depends on who you work with. I just
want to make that very clear, most coaches, present and future-focused, and Kaycee and I
are not like that. The other thing is, many people say therapy is just present and pastfocused and not necessarily future-focus and again, that’s a generalization.


While many therapists may do that, there are obviously therapists out there that add in the
future element as well. The other thing that Kaycee and I felt that we missed in this
interview when we sat on it was, obviously Kaycee and I are coaches and even though
Kaycee, I feel like is almost a borderline therapist, she even has a title of holistic
counselor. To me, you can really hold space for some deep feelings when we talked about
that in this interview, we have experienced the most transformation in coaching and so
we’re a little biased.

When we left this interview, we just both felt that maybe we didn’t give enough emphasis
on how important therapy can be and so we just want to take a moment for that and really
emphasize that therapy is a beautiful and amazing thing– I just listened to this interview
in full so I know we say it near the end of this interview, but I want to start with it by
saying it. Therapy is a beautiful and amazing thing and it can be very transformational for
people.


For Kaycee and I, it was a very slow transformation in therapy and then coaching just
really pumped it up for us. Especially for people of color, who are really coming into the
trauma they experienced, as they experience more and more racism, or they’re just
opening their eyes to it, that therapy is a beautiful, beautiful outlet for that, but for a lot of
people, they go to therapy, they get some transformation, or maybe a lot of transformation
and then they think, “Okay, well that’s it for me.”


For example, I had a consult with somebody last week, who, she lost a child, went to
therapy for a while, and then her therapist said, “Okay, you don’t need to come anymore
because you’re at an even ground now,” and she’s like, “Well, I don’t feel that way. I want
to keep going up, I want to keep thriving.” Those are the people that after therapy do
really, really well on coaching, because they’re at a pretty solid ground, they’ve done some
healing work.

Now, granted, when I get those clients, like the consult I had last week, I told her, I said,
“Yes, you’ve done some healing work, but we actually need to do a lot more, and I’m going
to take you even deeper in coaching, but because you’re strong enough, because of the
therapy work you did, I can take you there and then we can do this beautiful upswing and
get you to thriving in all areas of your life.”

I just want to emphasize that, because too, some people will come to me and they’ll be
very, what’s the word? Very– this isn’t the right wording, but very attached to their therapy
experience and they feel like I’m diminishing it and I’m not. Kaycee and I are just talking
about our experience. Again, this is our experience, and for you to take what you love and
leave the rest as I often say. I hope this conversation helps you.
Just know, again, I just listened back to it, and man, I was excited to say I talk really fast.
[sighs] I apologize in advance. I was like, “Man, Lindsay, take a breath,” but it was just
because I was so excited. Again, enjoy this episode, and I hope you take some beautiful
nuggets from it.


All right, Miss Kaycee, you’re back on the podcast, so thrilled to have you here. You’re the
only person who’s been on the podcast three times. I must really like you or something to
have you back.

Said in the intro why I wanted you to come back, because first off I trust you. Secondly is,
you’ve experienced coaching from me, I’ve experienced coaching from you, so I feel like
we understand each other and what we do really well. Then too, I just want the listeners to
have a different perspective and realize coaching and therapy isn’t a black and white, two
different bucket thing, this can be a very gray thing
because I’m going to have a different perspective than maybe you have. I don’t even know
what your full perspective is, so I’m excited to hear it today. Let’s just start and get right
into it. What would you say is the difference between therapy and coaching to you?
Kaycee Joy: To me, I would say that the difference between therapy and coaching from my
experience is that therapy for me was more of a surface-level healing while coaching
really dug down underneath the roots and got to the root of the problem to be able to live
the version of the life that I want to live.


While I think that therapy touches on the surface level, there were some great tools that I
gained from it. It was just, I didn’t know how to really uproot a problem to make life
actually better. It was just for a week or two, I’d feel better, I’d go back, and then talk some
more things out. I would say, yes, the differences between surface level and underneath
the surface.

Lindsay: Explain to everybody listening your experience with coaching because you did
therapy from when you were a little girl, right?


Kaycee: Yes. Since I was eight or nine.


Lindsay: Walk us through that.


Kaycee: I started therapy when I was eight or nine when my parents were going through a
divorce. I just remember a lot of times just sitting in the room with my siblings and my
mom and the therapist was telling our mom everything that was wrong with us, but it
didn’t ever feel like there was a solution offered. One of us had anger issues, one of us was
really manipulative, and one of us was just dealing with abandonment issues. That’s what I
remember thinking like, “Oh, something’s wrong with all of us kids? Now I don’t know
what are we supposed to do to fix it?”


Then there was a lot of teenage years, a lot of therapists blaming my parents for what had
happened and I really wasn’t needing somebody to blame other people in my life. I just
wanted to know how do I get better? Then with coaching, I feel like it was like, “This thing
happened. Let’s take a look at it, see how it had been affecting different areas of my life,
recognize it, break the pattern, and move on. There’s more space and fulfillment in life.”


Lindsay: Now, you said before we started recording this episode, you checked in with your
wife, Sarah, and her and you, she was on the same page. Did she have a similar difference
between coaching and therapy for her?

Kaycee: Yes. For her, it was a therapist would say, “Well, you have this issue.” Then a coach
would be like, “You have this thing going on, but let’s take a look and see how can we
break it down?” Her issue, I guess, would have been boundaries and the therapist was
saying she had no boundaries, and so she needed to put up a fence around her life with
boundaries and she’s like, “I don’t know how to do that.”
“Well, you have to do it,” where a coach was like, “Oh, well, we don’t have to do the whole
fence. We can just do one section of a fence, see if that works for you, see what that looks
like, see what it feels like, and then we just add a little bit more.” I was like, “Oh, that is
such a beautiful example, of her experience of the two.”
Lindsay: My experience is first off, I want to go back to your experience because I have a
question. When you were eight or nine, was that led by your parents, was it court-led? How
did that happen?


Kaycee: I think it was led by my mom based on– things felt really out of control growing
up. We had some traumatic situations going on with my dad of showing up at our house
unannounced, showing up at random places unannounced, and my siblings and I just really
didn’t know what to do with the trauma or pain that was happening. We had no space to
talk about it. The solution was, “Let’s go to therapy,” and then it still didn’t seem like we
had any solutions on how to deal with the trauma that was happening.


Lindsay: I asked because my experience is I went to college and I remember just hanging
out with some girls in a car one day and we’re talking about something I don’t remember
and they are like, “Lindsay, have you ever been to therapy?” I was like, “No.” They’re like,
“Oh, we have.” There’s this talking about this and I remember being so mind blown
because here I am, I’m 19, 20, maybe even 21 at that age, and I never really even thought
therapy was an option.
If it was something really big and bad and that’s why you went to therapy. I remember
being so open of like, “That’s so interesting.” Granted, I’m a psych major. I’m going into
school saying, “One day I’m going to be a counselor.” That was my thought process, but yet
again, it was just a very logical thing that I didn’t make a connection that that was for me.
My mind was open. I was like, “Okay, people do this thing.”


It makes so much sense of my childhood because my parents don’t value emotional health.
It’s just like, “grin and bear it, suck it up.” I remember even growing up, someone would cry
on TV and they were made fun of. It was like, “Oh my God. Look at them. They’re crying.
Blah, blah, blah.” We just learned we don’t feel. We just shut it off, keep going, but again,
like I said, my mind was open.
It was like, “Okay, this is something people do.” Just keep going on with my life, keep
trucking on, and then it wasn’t until my relationship with Izzy’s dad started to fall apart. I
had caught him cheating, not in the big double life thing, but he had come back from a
work trip. I had happened to just pick up his phone, which I never did. I happened to just
somehow know what his password was, Kaycee. Still to this day, I don’t know. It was this
angelic download I got. Unlock his thing.

I see all these pictures of him with girls on his recent trip and I lose it. I was like, “Oh my
God.” We had a two-year-old and I was like, “What does this mean?” I got his mom involved
because I kicked him out of the house and his mom knew all about it and she was like, “I’m
so disappointed in him.” We all just put blame on him for a while and was like, “This is on
you. You need to go to therapy.” That was like, “Red flag. Okay, come on. Therapy time.” He
started going.
His mom pulled me aside one day and said, “Lindsay, I really think you should go to
therapy.” I remember being like, “What? how could she even say that to me? That bitch.”
This is a woman I deeply loved and I respected. I remember walking away a day or two
later and I was like, “Maybe she’s right. Maybe I should go to therapy.” I just reached out to
somebody who was local. I remember her calling me on the phone. I remember I was at a
store and she said, “Well, why do you want to come to therapy?”


I said, “Well, I think there’s something wrong with me. I think I need to calm.” I was like,
“My partner is having this moment and it’s all about him, but I still think there’s something
off with me.” I went to therapy for a year, every single week and she did not accept
insurance. I paid $150 every single week cash to go see this woman and that was what we
did. Every single week was figure out what’s wrong with Lindsay.
Now, granted, that was in essence, my goal, and I came in saying like, “Here’s what I want
to achieve,” but it’s mind-blowing to me that as a coach, if somebody came to me and said,
“Hey, Lindsay. I want to find out what’s wrong with me,” I’d be like, “We need to change the
script real quick.” Whereas instead, she was totally like, “Yes, let’s figure out what’s wrong
with you.”

It immediately came back, “You have some anxiety, you have some depression, you
catastrophized, you’re making up these stories about how your partner is cheating on you.
He said he just did it once. Why is this a thing?” Every week I would go and I would talk
about him and I remember even some sessions. I said, “Isn’t it weird we talk about him the
whole time and we’re not talking about me.” She said, “Well, he’s the source of all your
problems.” Again, as a coach now, it’s so crazy to me.


Anyways, I made some progress in therapy that year. There was some awareness
happening. It was a very slow-moving, but I walked away from that experience obviously
than when I found out he had the double life and stuff was like, “This did not work for me,”
and him and I had even gone to therapy a couple of times and in that therapy experience,
looking back on it now from a professional standpoint, she wasn’t holding space for us
well. It was just we just both vented and it was like, “Well, I’ll see you guys next week,”
kind of thought.

Again, what you’re saying surface level is what it felt like. I was like, “I need healing. I need
transformation now. I can’t stand this.” Then I enter coaching and many of y’all know this
story that listen to the show of it was on a whim. I went a tarot card reader and she said,
“You’re going to be a coach.” I was like, “No, no, no, I’m going to be a counselor.” She’s like,
“No, you’re not. That is not a good fit for you” Even my own poor experience with
counseling.
I signed up for coaching still just thinking, “Oh, I’m just going to try this out to see if it’s a
good professional fit.” I get my butt kicked. The first month I’m like, “Holy crap. I had no
idea. I needed this amount of healing.” And experiencing the transformation in that first
month. I remember at that time I had just started dating Jason and he had taken me on this
beautiful trip to Vegas where we stayed at this amazing hotel, in this suite, and I remember
actually being able to feel joy for the first time and being like, “Oh my God, this is why.
This is incredible.”


I was hooked. I was like, “I want to be this coach, I want to do the thing.” It’s so interesting
that you brought up the difference between at surface level versus deep, because if you
hear many other people say the difference between therapy and coaching, they will say,
“Well, therapy is for people who aren’t functioning and coaching is for people who are on
an even ground who are ready to thrive.” Would you agree with that at all, Kaycee?
Kaycee: I guess I never thought of it that way before. Could you repeat it?
Lindsay: Yes. I hear many people say therapy is for people who want to become functional,
or in essence, be on an even ground. Even some people will say being neutral and
coaching is for those who are on even ground, who are feeling mostly neutral who are
ready to thrive.

Kaycee: Yes, I would have to say that even somebody who is wanting to function is still
also ready for coaching.


Lindsay: Yes, I agree. Because I think about too like my coaching process and what you do
is like, especially for me, the first three months, I’m getting people to neutrality. I’m
thinking about the work I do with you and the work I know you do is you’re getting people
out of those really deep-rooted emotions, like sadness and anger and feeling those deep
things that some coaches be like, “Oh, no, well, I can’t do that.”
Even, between me and you Kaycee, you go way deeper into that than I do. That’s why many
times I’ll have a client that needs to go deeper and I’ll be like, “Kaycee, I have a client for
you.” That’s what I wanted to present today too is, again, this is not black and white.
Because even the difference between me and you is different. Let’s talk about that Kaycee.
What are your thoughts about the difference between me and you in regards to how we
coach in our practices?

Kaycee: I think that it’s a– I’m willing to go into the deep-rooted sadness and anger,
because I’m like, that’s where the secret sauce is, for me, from my perspective, and I feel
like, it’s just something that I’m gifted at being able to do. Where I’m like, “Let’s go, let’s
get under those roots, and let’s get it up and out of you.” Where I think you have this
beautiful way of doing all the mindset work, and tapping into the body. When there’s stuck
trauma in the body, I’m like, “Okay, let’s go underneath that trauma and pull it up and out
of the body.”


Lindsay: Yes. Many times when I’m referring clients to you, I’m like, “We’ve uncovered
something,” and they learn the tools from me that they can go hold the space for
themselves, especially with the mind to be able to go and heal that, like what we call
hyper-venting or releasing, but if they’re wanting someone to hold space for them, and at
least in our session, if not longer, and go really, really deep to really feel the pain of that,
I’m like, “You need to book some sessions with Kaycee.”

Even too, what you and I have talked about, in another podcast and we’ve talked offline
about, is I’m so good in the mind and in my coaching worlds, it’s been like, the mind, the
mind, you fix the mind, and they’re good. It hasn’t been till recently that everyone’s like,
“Oh, shit, the body.”
[laughter]


Kaycee: The body, yes.

Lindsay: You even said it to me whenever I had a consult with you, because I was like,
“Kaycee, I just need something else.” You’re like, “Lindsay, your mind is totally on board to
have this amazing life but you need some bodywork.” I was like, “Yes, I do.”


Kaycee: I get the body on board.

Lindsay: Right. Again, it’s like– How I see our differences is you’re able to hold that deep
space, you’re getting more of that bodywork, where I’m– We both do it because you
uncover things for me all the time. We’re both uncovering things. I think sometimes, too,
and I love your perspective on this, Kaycee but, I’ve told you, I share a wall with a therapist
now and so I hear a lot of those sessions.
I’ve told you even sometimes I just want to bust in and be like, “Here’s the problem. You do
this. You do this,” and they dance around it. Whereas in coaching, it’s a lot more direct. You
told me recently, “Lindsay, when did you just throw away boundaries when it’s not fun or
something?” I was like, “Oh, shit.” [chuckles] Whereas my experience in therapy has been
like, “Oh, they don’t really go there and say those direct things.” This is danced around.
What do you think Kaycee?


Kaycee: I would agree with that, or they don’t call it directly or they blame somebody else
versus being able to directly call you out on your shit.

Lindsay: Yes, I think that’s the difference too. I know, the Life Coach School, for example.
They’re a big leader in the coaching industry that I consider and they’re to me very much
straight coaching. If I think coaching, it’s them, it’s mindset work and the big thing with
them is, we don’t ever jump in the pool with our clients ever.
I get coached by them all the time, different coaches from that school and there are some
days that I’m like, “Dude, just jump in the pool with me a little bit,” like, “Give me a toe,
give me a foot. Give me something.” I think there’s a beautiful balance with that, because I
think some therapists they just jump all the way in the pool and they’re like, “Yes, that
person’s horrible,” or “Yes–” You feel shitty, and all that, whereas in coaching, it’s like, for
me, I do feel I have my foot in there sometimes. Sometimes with more established clients,
I don’t.


You and I have talked about this, it’s like some of my clients are used to me jumping in a
little bit are like, “Why aren’t you jumping in the pool with me?” [chuckles] It’s tricky. I do
think there’s a beautiful balance between that of like– I think you did this beautifully,
Kaycee of like, “Oh, yes, Lindsay, the sadness,” and you get into it with me, but you know
that I’m strong enough and you know how to guide me that I will come out of it. You know
that I’m not indulging in it, that you’re just holding space for it but you’re eventually going
to guide me out of that. Am I explaining that right or are you on the same page with what
I’m saying?

Kaycee: Yes, absolutely. When I can see it, I’m like, “Ooh, we’re right there. Let’s just lean
into this badness, lean into the anger and lean into the rage, just a little bit and press your
body into it and then I’ll just bring you right back up.” If I feel like you would need at this a
little bit more, then I would invite you to go back into the sadness and feel it just a little
bit more, but I’ll always bring you back to you.


Lindsay: I think it goes back to a couple of things. I think each client needs a specific
balance of that. For me, Kaycee, I think I need more somebody who’s like, “Let’s jump in
the pool a little bit.” When I have people that don’t jump in the pool with me at all, I’m
like, “Listen, I could give that to myself all day.” I need somebody that’s going to honor my
www.LindsayEPreston.com | © Lindsay E Preston Coaching LLC 11
emotions, where I think for other people they want– They’re so deep in the pool, and you
getting deep in the pool with them is not helpful. Like almost, you’re the one pulling them
out of the pool a little bit. If that makes sense?

Kaycee: Yes, absolutely. Because we don’t want somebody to be stuck in the pool,
especially if they’re really submersed into it, then it would be yes, the job of us to get like,
“Let’s come up to the surface of the pool.” We don’t have to be down there.


Lindsay: I consider like the pool of misery or of suffering, of suffering in their mind. Yes, so
it’s a beautiful balance between the two. I think for me when I’m looking at somebody
who’s coming to me and wanting coaching, I’m like, “Are they strong enough to be able to
pull themselves out of the pool enough?” Because for some people, they just need more
time and space in the pool.

They need someone to just slowly pull them up out of the pool and that’s where for me,
I’m like, “Maybe you should go to therapy.” Or even like– I think, again, Kaycee, you do this
differently than I do and so sometimes I’ll refer people to you of like, “Oh, I just feel like
you need a little bit more hand-holding.” Versus for me, I’m like, okay, “She’s feeling but
she’s at the surface level of the pool of feeling and she’s ready to be fully pulled out.” Does
that make sense?
Kaycee: Absolutely. [chuckles]


Lindsay: I’m good at taking people like, they’re just swimming up top and it’s like, “Well,
let’s get out and let’s go.” Whereas I feel like for you, it’s like, they’re a little bit deeper in
the pool and you’re able to still pull them out. You still have your own boundaries with
how deep you will go. Right?

Kaycee: Yes, because I can’t work with somebody who just wants to swim in the misery or
stay in that space. If I can’t even get them to budge a little, then that’s my boundary. Then
you probably just need more time to go through therapy, before coming back to me. Or I
could work with them simultaneously.


Lindsay: Yes. Let’s talk about that. Because my antiracism coach, Alyssa, she’s a big
advocate that everybody has a coach and a therapist and her big thing is, I’m not going to
bring to coaching what I’m going to bring to therapy and for her, it’s like, I go and I get
coached, and sometimes it’ll bring up stuff for me that then I take to my therapist, which
makes sense. I think that’s where you and I have had a balance, especially with the Living
the Dream group program is like the coaching in there can be very powerful, and that we
bring up a lot of stuff.


It’s like, you’re going all in your life. You’re creating a dream life. That’s not some small
goal. It brings up a lot of stuff for people. When it does, I’m like, “Hey, you need some extra
sessions with Kaycee.” I view you as like almost a therapist in my pocket, even though
you’re not a therapist of like, “Hey, here’s some extra space there.”
That for me is my balance between the two. Again, I’m not taking on clients who are really
deep in the pool. Now you and I have had an experience with a couple of people who we
found, they just keep going deeper and deeper, in the pool, even through both of our work.
It’s not like a one-size fits all thing. For you, when a client is like, “Should I have a
therapist as well?” What would be the qualities they would need or have to bring on a
therapist?

Kaycee: Would that be more of like the results gained from therapy?


Lindsay: I don’t know. Just tell me intuitively what you do?


Kaycee: I don’t know because I feels like–

Lindsay: You feel like you do it?


Kaycee: Yes. I have one client that I’ve been working with since September And every
single week. She’s like, “Therapy hasn’t worked for me. It’s been a very slow process.”
Because we meet every week and there’s additional support in between, I’m like, “I don’t
think that you need therapy.” Now, if somebody came to me and they were like, “I really
would love to see you and do therapy.” I’m like, “Great, as long as they love the reasons for
it.”
I think that as long as another person believes that they need therapy, then I’m all for it. If
there’s something that they feel like they’re not gaining from working with me though, I’m
open to hearing that and being able to see, is it something that I can offer? Is it something
that I just haven’t been offering? Does more space need to be held? Do they just need
more time to process? I always am willing to honor the other person and what they’re
really feeling I think.


Lindsay: Again, it goes to like, it’s not a one-size-fits-all answer here, but if a client comes
to me and says, “Hey, I think I want to add on a therapist.” I’d be like, “Okay, what are your
reasons why for that?” I have some clients that come to me and say, “Listen, I have a
therapist. I love her. I want to keep working with her.” Maybe them they don’t even tell me
about it until later.


I have a client right now who is Asian. All this anti-Asian violence has brought up a lot for
her. She has said, “Hey, Lindsay, I want to keep coaching with you, but I want to pause it
and work with my therapist to process this.” I’m like, “Okay, if you ever want sessions
where we can process, you can.” She has made the choice, she wants to do that work with
her therapist. I totally honor that.

Then I have another client who I’m thinking of who is like, “Lindsay, I want to keep
coaching,” but she’s had so many massive life changes over the past few months, and it’s
brought up some stuff for her. Where we are in the coaching process is like, “You’ve got to
be more emotionally regulated than where you are, but she’s still committed of like, “I
want this to keep coaching.”


I’m like, “Okay, well with that said, I’ve mentioned you before.” She’s like, not into that.
You’ve got to bring on a therapist because you need some space to work on that emotional
regulation because you’re so committed that you want to keep coaching. Does that make
sense, Kaycee, as I’m explaining that?

Kaycee: Absolutely.


Lindsay: It goes back to like, everyone’s like, “Should I do coaching or therapy?” It depends
on where you’re at in that specific time in your life and who you’re going to in essence, like
who you’re seeking out as that person because right now it seems like we may be dogging
on therapy, but I know there’s some great therapists out there.
I haven’t yet to find them as a client where I’m like, “Oh my gosh, that was
transformational,” but they’re out there for sure. You may find that they have a more
coaching approach or the therapy that they do works for you. That’s totally your thing.
Kaycee, the next question I want to ask you is, how do you know when for you, it’s a client
that’s going to be a good fit for you?

Kaycee: I love this question. For me, I feel like I know it’s a good fit for me when there’s
somebody that’s really desiring the change. Probably, somebody who feels like they’ve
done everything and they still have the hope within, like, there’s got to be a better way,
there’s got to be a different way. It’s those people wanting to try this, like one more option.
I’m like, “Okay, yes. I’m willing to work with you.” If they’re willing to put in the work and
show up, they’re committed to the transformation for their life. That’s when I’m like, “Okay,
this is a good fit.”


Lindsay: I think for me too, it’s the same way. It goes back to, we keep talking about this
pool of misery. That’s why I think that a lot of my wording I’m like driven people, go-getter
people, growth-oriented people. As long as somebody has hope and determination of like,
I’m going to make this work, and some belief of like, there’s got to be something out there,
anything’s possible, really.
It’s when they’re like, these are all the illnesses that I have, and this is how the world
works. You’re like, “Hey, you’re not really coachable. You’re really thinking that that’s the
way the world works for you, but you’ve got to have some sort of openness of seeing
things in a different way and being willing to show up,” and like you said, do the work, and
make it happen. Just that one little trait really driven this.
Kaycee: Driven and open-minded.
Lindsay: Open-minded and hopeful. Some clients will lose hopefulness. I’m like, “Oh, we’re
fucked.” You got to keep the hope alive in essence that it can change. It goes back to what
I just keep saying. It’s like, you got to find the right person or people for you and to get in
your mind what are exactly the results I want to create. Then it is like magic how the
universe brings it to you. I love hearing from clients all the time. They’re like, “You just
appeared.” There’s some saying with that like, “believe and the teacher will appear” or
something.

I believe that’s true because even with you, when you told me you were really pursuing
this coaching thing and we got into a coaching relationship again, I was like, “Oh, this is
interesting. I can’t wait to see what Kaycee’s been learning.” Then as I saw your
transformation in front of my eyes and how you were interpreting our coaching and stuff, I
was like, “What she has is what I’m missing. I want some of that in my life,” and it’s just
like you appeared. Right?


Kaycee: I do feel like as long as the person is wanting therapy, it’s great. There are
beautiful things that people can gain from therapy. I think that some of the things that I’ve
taken notice too of that people can gain from therapy is that there is more space to talk
and cry and just let the emotions go. There are times where I’ve had therapist that have
validated my feelings and while it did come from like unvalidated, because my parents
were awful.

I was with this person, there was a lot of blaming, there was a piece of me that was
validated for feeling the way that I was feeling. Then I think that because therapy is talk,
therapy that you can walk away with a lot of communication tips, and skills. I don’t want it
to sound from my perspective, that therapy is a bad thing because I think it’s a beautiful
gift in the world.


Lindsay: Agree.


Kaycee: I think both of us absolutely wholeheartedly believe that.

Lindsay: That’s so important you brought that up, and it goes back to the story. I wanted to
tell that I would have forgotten. When Jason and I, we did couples coaching at the end ofWe were just at a place where I would say our relationship fulfillment was like at a
seven, eight, and then we would have these moments where we were brought down to like
a five or six in regards to how fulfilled it felt in the relationship.
Granted most people would be like, “Oh, a five, six, that’s average. Seven, eight, that’s
above average.” At the time it was like, “I want a 10 relationship. I want to do this.” That’s
when the bud forming in. I was like, “Let’s go to this couple’s therapy and really figure out
what it is.” Right out of the gate, she presented to me that I had this, we now call it the
inner mean girl voice of this vacillator.


I had no idea of what this was. With that was like, “Well, here’s likely how your childhood
was, Lindsay. You also have this really big avoider, you’re too self-sufficient.” It blew my
mind. I was like, “I just had–” She just presented to me this awareness that was just so
mind-blowing to me, which is what coaching does, of like showing you your blocks in a
very powerful way at times.

It was so powerful to me, Kaycee, that she wanted me to then move forward and to say,
“Okay, now you’re going to start doing this thing called this comfort circle where you’re
going to see Jason for comfort, and you’re going to look at his eyes, you’re going to lay on
his lap and do all this stuff.” I was like, “Listen, I’m just not there yet. I need some time to
really just process that my childhood was the way it was, and just take some time for that.”
I needed about a good month, I ended up getting really sick during that period of time. I
had the worst cough I’ve ever had in my life, because my body was just like, “Oh my gosh,
I’ve actually been validated. Look at me.” I remember thinking that was the first time I was
like, “Should I get a therapist?” Because I just needed someone to hold space for me and
just to really process like, yes, that really happens.


I ended up giving it to myself, and then coming back to coaching and be like, “Okay, now
I’m ready,” which goes back to a story, I was telling earlier the client with the Asian
violence, she’s like, “Lindsay, I just need some time to process and I want to do that with
my therapist.” I was like, “That’s awesome.” I think that’s where therapy can be really
powerful, of let’s just hold space and freeze in this moment. Again, we go out to the pool
of like, I wanted someone to jump deep into the pool with me and just be like, “Yes,
Lindsay, this was really shitty,” and be like, “Yes, it was.”
I’m glad you brought that up. Because I think sometimes we as coaches can be like, “Oh,
we’re– It seems like we’re better than therapy,” and therapists need like, “Oh, coaching,
they’re not as qualified and they’re just positive focused and da da da.” It’s just not true.
We work together in a very, very beautiful way. I’m glad you brought that up. Anything
come up for you as I tell that story?

Kaycee: No.


Lindsay: Okay. You feel like we got it all out?


Kaycee: Yes. We begin from coaching.

Lindsay: Oh, let’s talk about that. Well, we’ve talked about that with your story and my
story. Obviously, let’s just put it out there. Kaycee and I are biased. [chuckles] We got
massive transformation from coaching. That’s just what we needed. That’s just what we
needed at that time. We got the right thing at the right time. I’ve had other coaches I’ve
worked with and that was like, “That was okay.”
I’ve even worked with somebody who was a therapist and a coach and when we started
doing coaching, she was like, “Well, Lindsay, I really think that we should move into
coaching or into therapy for me and you.” I was like, “No, I have the tools.” Then I went and
I did all the coaching tools that I teach and I came back a couple of weeks later, and I was
like, “I’m ready to move on,” and she’s like, “You are?” I was like, “Yes.”
I told her what I did and she’s like, “Lindsay, you’re psychologically gifted.” I was like, “No,
these are just the tools that I teach.” [chuckles] That’s what I think is so important is, again,
it’s like, for me and my coaching, I teach all those tools, for the most part in the mind of
how to heal yourself. People have to be strong enough and willing enough to hold space
for themselves to go and do that. Sometimes you just need somebody to hold that space
for you.


I think that’s why I brought you in my life to be my coach, which I consider you’re my
coach/therapist in some ways because we’re moving very slow through some stuff in my
eyes of feeling the feelings. Now, of course, I’m getting powerful results from this, but it’s
not any other kind of coaching I’ve experienced. It’s more of a blend between the two.


Kaycee: It can definitely be a slow process and then like, it feels then afterwards, it’s like
the fireworks go off. I can’t really quite explain what happens in those sessions but then
afterwards, it’s like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, all these things happened. I love that.

Lindsay: Well, and I think for me, it’s like I said earlier, I think where my healing is right
now is, I’m so good at taking action, I’m so good at changing my mindset. I’m so good at
denying my feelings in that sense. That’s my work is not to deny those feelings and to feel
those feelings and to tap into my body. That’s why when I leave, I can just take massive
action, because in many other areas of my life, I’m in alignment, and I can move forward.
I think that’s where you and I have talked about too of like, of when we both have clients
and they’re just not progressing, they’re just getting stuck there. They say they’re going to
do X, Y, Z work between sessions, they don’t. They show up again, they still haven’t done it.
That’s when for me, I’m like, “Okay, I think you need to go to a therapist.” Would you agree
with that, Kaycee, for you?


Kaycee: No, because I would first try to figure out what’s going on to make them avoid the
thing to see if we can get to a root, and then if we can’t, then it would be like, “Yes, let’s go
to the therapist.”

Lindsay: Yes. If you can’t get to the root, then you send one.
Kaycee: Yes.


Lindsay: Yes. I agree. I send them to you first.


[laughter]

Lindsay: Go to Kaycee first because Kaycee knows– Because you know my work and you
have this extra layer and if Kaycee can’t get to it, then, damn. Then we need to bring in a
therapist.


Kaycee: The work that we do, your work and then my work and then combining it really is
like this beautiful dance of a person as a whole being. It really is the mind, body soul
emotions, combining all of them together.

Lindsay: When you and I have talked, it’s like, especially with my group program, the Living
the Dream with my ongoing clients, it gets more into a masculine energy of like, “Let’s go,
let’s go, let’s go,” and if you need more space, and you book a one on one call, and so then
I have more space for them to feel deeper but I bring you in, of like adding that feminine
element and to me, that’s just such a beautiful dance because it’s like, I’m the dad and it’s
like, “Come on, let’s go. Let’s get this going.” If not, we can spend more time together. If
you’re really needing that feminine element and that feeling, here’s Kaycee.
[laughter]


Lindsay: Okay, Kaycee, just in case people don’t know where to find you and to reach out
and to work with you. Tell us where they can.

Kaycee: Yes, so the best way to connect with me would be on Instagram,
@Kayceejoyhealing. K-A-Y-C- E-E Joy Healing.


Lindsay: Yaay. I think too working with either one of us, is a great dance and If you work
with me, you’re going to work with Kaycee at some point. Get ready.
[laughter]
Lindsay: Thank you Kaycee for sharing your wisdom with us today.

Kaycee: Yes, thanks for having me.
Lindsay: You’re welcome.


[music]

Hey there, Miss Unstoppable. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode. If you enjoyed
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